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 Chris Dee |
The Dark Knight |
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Posts: 792 07/18/08 16:48 |
No words yet, other than the OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG which some of you already heard. But we need a thread for whenever we regain the power of speech. This
is it.
Please remember to be considerate placing spoilers in spoiler tags. |
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 The Wilder |
#1 | |||
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Posts: 261 07/18/08 17:40 Gothamite |
You took the words, or lack thereof, right out of my mouth. I was literally speechless after the credits rolled.
I really couldn't find something wrong about the movie to nitpick about. I'm still too in awe for speech, but I will say that the packed theater audience made the experience all that more moving and amazing. Their reactions, responses, and respectfulness for TDK just magnified an already great film. |
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Coralskipper.dubthistheforum |
#2 | |||
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Posts: 138 07/18/08 23:32 |
Yeah, I saw it at midnight with my best friend last night, and we couldn't find anything wrong with the movie. I mean it was over 2:15 long, but it
didn't ever feel that. It was about as perfect as possible, and actually exceeded my expectations.
Damon Runyon once said, "Ninety-five percent of sports tradition is fiction. Lies, if you like. But harmless. Who the hell cares if the facts get
twisted?"
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Clutterbuck |
#3 | |||
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Posts: 32 07/19/08 09:43 |
I saw it with my wife and our friend last night at the earliest showing after work (6:20). We'd been planning on the 7:10, but it, and all the later shows
were sold out. Luckily, we arrived just in time to catch the earlier show without missing anything but a couple of previews. We did end up having to sit in the
front row (in a stadium-type theatre), which did diminish my enjoyment of the movie, but didn't ruin it. The trailers we did get to see were for Terminator
4 (interestingly, starring Christian Bale as John Connor), Watchmen, and a bunch of more forgettable things.
Not much I can say about the movie without being spoilery. Like Batman Begins but moreso, it situates Batman in a world more like our own than that of most recent superhero movies, and makes the point that in such a world, a vigilante is not necessarily a good thing to have around, no matter how heroic he may be personally. The acting was top-notch. Again as with Batman Begins, they went out of their way to cast top acting talent in all of the major roles, and the results were excellent. The Joker in The Dark Knight is definitely the Joker of The Killing Joke, not of, for example, The Laughing Fish. The late Heath Ledger doesn't really look the part, but he performed it brilliantly, and really inhabited the character in exactly the way Jack Nicholson didn't. Christian Bale is also the first actor to play both a great Batman (Bat-gravel and all) and a great Bruce Wayne (Fop and all). Aaron Eckhart is picture-perfect as Harvey Dent . The early part of the movie gives plenty of foreshadowing as to what lies in Harvey's future, including his lucky double-headed coin and coin-flipping habit, and references to him as "the face of Gotham law enforcement", without making it clear in advance whether he'll meet that fate in this movie or in a future installment. Unlike the ending of Batman Begins, there's no clear hint as to who the main villain of the next film will be, no calling card in an evidence bag. However, early on in the film . |
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Chris Dee |
#4 | |||
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Posts: 792 07/19/08 12:02 |
Okay then, deep breath.
I honestly can't remember the last Batman-ANYTHING I experienced that didn't have a single line to overlook, not a moment that clanked, not one idea that left a sour aftertaste. No FLAW - at all. I didn't know that was fucking possible, but I think we might just have it sitting here in front of us. (okay, there is one line/moment/concept I can point to as a joke, but we'll save that for the P.S.) My first thoughts in no particular order… Wouldn't it cheer Harvey's heart to know that his movie is the second time in cinematic history the sequel was better than the original? Hey look, you can change major aspects of an origin and it still works if you understand and remain true to the essence of who the character is. The action sequences are gripping, unlike in Batman Begins when I had to fight to stay awake during the interminable saving Rachel car chase. The first scenes - and indeed the later scenes - are RICH with IDEAS. Again, unlike Batman Begins, they don't contradict themselves. They're not searching hit-or-miss. This film KNOWS what it's about. Guilty admission: when I first heard chatter about a posthumous Oscar nomination for Heath Ledger, I thought "pfft, the kind of sentimental claptrap fanboys and Hollywood are prone to, but come on, do we have to make an adequate performance into a great one just because it was his last?" I hang my head in shame at that thought. This IS an oscar-caliber performance. It is brilliant, original, and inspired. The material itself is great, I am not one to give an actor credit for a writer's work. But what Ledger did was live up to the material he was given, fuse with it, and make it into more than the sum of it's parts. That is how it is SUPPOSED to work. But let's not overlook Aaron Eckhart's performance just because he is still alive. The tragedy of Harvey Dent is one of the great stories. Like so much in the Batman mythos, it "only" needed someone with a knowing eye to recognize the diamond in the rough, to cut it to perfection, and polish it to it's most brilliant, and then set it in such a way to show it off to its best. Jeph Loeb and Tim Sale began that process in The Long Halloween, Nolan built on that foundation, and it is Christian Bale (who has more than a little Shakespeare in his past) and Eckhart who really give it, finally, the presentation before the world that it deserves as a modern tragedy in the classic form. That also is the way it is SUPPOSED to work. This is what happens when you have a team that does not dismiss the basic principles of storytelling and classic structure as so much ivory tower stuff that has nothing to do with comic books. Hong Kong! Don't get me wrong, Chicago/Gotham looks great. But I have a special place in my heart for the density of skyscrapers we see in the Hong Kong shots, and IMO that's what makes not just the movie as a whole, but the trailers that feature the Hong Kong bat such an eyeful of Uber-Gotham. The Alfred/Bruce dynamic is PERFECT. Gordon is PERFECT. Lucius is PERFECT. In recasting Rachel, the film took a huge step in addressing the irrelevancy of women in Batman Begins. Mrs. Gordon like Martha Wayne is simply "there" without any real contribution to make to the story, and the bimbos, by their nature, are nothing but stage props for Bruce's fop act (which is much better this time around. Truly the fop as Bruce Wayne would play him). Gordon has a son and not a daughter. Seriously, this Gotham needs a little estrogen. But we have to walk before we can run, and undoing the damage of Katie Holmes chewing out Bruce like Dawson and Pacey is more than enough of an accomplishment for one movie that had a lot of ground to cover.The Lamborghini! My heart damn near stopped!
Spoiler
I'm sorry, but since Short Tales, I have had one simple editorial rule - no matter how bad the writer's block, no matter how desperate we are for a
plot development, we do not sacrifice the Lambo. All the characters in my head agree on this. When the critical moment came on the screen, you should have
heard them scream.
Okay, I'm done for now. It's lunchtime. Oh yes, the P.S. The one line I will pull out of Dark Knight and say HEY! NOT NICE! "If you're really good at something, you don't do it for free." Just for that, Kittlemeier is tripling the prices of whoopee cushions, squirty flowers, and spats, filtering the money to my offshore accounts, and Joker is going to be buying my martinis for a very, very long time.
--Chris Dee
Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Superpowers corrupts - superbly. --Identity Element |
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Clutterbuck |
#5 | |||
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Posts: 32 07/19/08 12:56 |
Chris Dee wrote:
There actually were a few things that didn't sit entirely well with me. The only one that grabbed me right up front was the The folks I went to see it with are also very political, and the theme that really bothered them was
Spoiler
the endorsement of the Noble Lie by essentially all of the heroes -- that the authorities have to lie to the public for their own good. To link that to all that is evil: Noble Lie -> Leo Strauss -> Neoconservatism -> Frank Miller 
Also But these things didn't really interfere with my enjoyment of the movie. Those of you, like me, with over-sensitive political threat detectors might be advised to shut them off for the course of the movie  Those things basically pale before what I thought was best about the movie, the faithfulness to the
source material.
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Chris Dee |
#6 | |||
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Posts: 792 07/19/08 14:34 |
Well, see what makes those elements acceptable in my view is that they are not just tossed out there, they are discussed.
Is that a correct resolution? I don't know, so we have something to talk about afterwards. A movie that contains ideas, I'm all in favor. There are a lot of ideas in this film, and unlike a lot of the "Hollywood airs its view on current politics" efforts, it
--Chris Dee
Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Superpowers corrupts - superbly. --Identity Element |
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The Wilder |
#7 | |||
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Posts: 261 07/19/08 18:08 Gothamite |
I think I missed that last part of your post, Chris. But these are all great ideas and discussions that I don't think I'm quite ready to delve into
yet. Not meaning to plug or spam, but I wrote a spoiler-free review on my blog about TDK.
For me personally, Harvey stole the show. Heath Ledger deserves every bit of praise and then some for his amazing performance as the Joker, but I was most excited to see Aaron Eckhart as good 'ol Harv. The way they handled him with Rachel and Bruce as well as him with Gordon and Batman was fantastic. I can't say enough good things about Harvey's entire journey throughout the film, especially towards the end. There is still so much to be explored in Harvey's character. I'm amazed that everything just felt right. There was barely a hair out of place. But I do have some predictions for the sequel. But as Chris said, it's been so long since somebody understood and just got everything right. I'll hopefully be back with more. EDIT: And in case you needed even more assurance of how much they understood, here's an article discussing inspiration for TDK. Very great read, and even includes lengthy comments from Jeph Loeb himself.
Last Edited By: The Wilder 07/20/08 22:30.
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Chris Dee |
#8 | |||
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Posts: 792 07/21/08 08:44 |
Oh, excellent. I really think Jeph is to Harvey as Chris is to Selina. It's a treat hearing him kick in on a character so near and dear to his heart.
And now, for something completely different: AppleGeeks weigh in.  Oh yes, p.s. I do see that the previous post was cut off. Unfortunately I have no idea what
I had said in that final sentence. I doubt it was anything profoundly wonderful.
P.P.S. I knew I'd be remembering things I forgot to put in the first review. Since I first saw the prequel bank robbery in the viral, it has been reminding me of the Adrianas job from Beverly Hills Cop II, one of my 3 best big-screen heists.
--Chris Dee
Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Superpowers corrupts - superbly. --Identity Element
Last Edited By: Chris Dee 07/21/08 09:23.
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ichigenka.gothampm |
#9 | |||
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Posts: 264 07/23/08 11:56 |
hmm I'm pretty sure that in the movie, Gordon has both a son and daughter. In the scene where TwoFace is gonna shoot someone in Gordon's family you see
a bit mass of red hair on the left, ie Barabra-daughter (though naming the wife Barabra kinda threw me for a loop). Also was his "son" the kid that
Rachel saved from the Narrows? Sure looked like it. After that I could totally see Mama Gordon leaving with the son cause she can't take the crazies.
Surprisingly, I've talked to several people that think TwoFace isn't dead and that Gordon just published Harv's death to solidify the "shining knight" persona. Secretly Two Face is locked up in Arkham. They've discussed that it's the announcement of the "death" of the shining knight that causes the true personality split between TF and Harvey (ie how can I be dead? I'm right here. shut up go back to being dead. The TV said so. |
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DorothyTRose |
#10 | |||
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Posts: 215 07/23/08 20:56 |
Oh yah. Gordon definitely has a daughter. You just never get to see her face, hear her voice, and for some reason she just gets skipped
altogether. If her little head didn't move a bit on its own, you could almost wonder if Barbara was holding a doll. heh. As for Barbara being the name
of Jim's wife...yah, that through me for a loop the first time I encountered it, too. Lucky for me, that was in "The Long Halloween" instead of
the movie. ^_^' If you remember, though, Gordon had a small, unnamed child already in Batman Begins. And I'm 98% sure that the kid Rachel rescued
from the Narrows insident is supposed to be Gordon's son. I'll have to see a couple scenes from Begins again to get the other 2% sure, though. heh.
I was disappointed with the Harvey situation, but long ago I adopted the mentality that, unless a coroner pronounces a body dead AND there is a funeral, it ain't necessarily dead. Even then, it's negotiable. Therefore, I'm not convinced that Ra's is dead either. ^__^ And now for my own review: "Meow! And wow! I don't think I've ever seen a movie that so completely filled all my expectations and then continued to give me another hour of awesome goodness. I don't know how, but if I did, I would write Nolan a letter thanking him profusely for keeping the characters *shock, surprise* in character. It was perfect! There were so many places where I wanted to point at the screen and say, 'Yes! You see this, you stupid comicbook writers? This is the way it's supposed to be!' (And remember, I'm talking to the stupid ones, not the ones who know how to do it right.) Nolan obviously loves and respects the characters. Oh, and the bike? That thing is sweeeet! In some respects, I think it might be better than the car. Even my dad said it was cool and he doesn't say that about very many things. My favourite scene though have to be the press conference and Bruce's last fop act. I don't know how he can do it with a straight face." But...I really have to wonder what the parents of the 5 and 8 year olds were thinking in bringing such young children to a movie like this. >_< Were they not familiar with the level of realism from the first movie? Were they not familiar with the villains? Were they expecting something like Cartoon Network? I mean, really! I don't like kids that much, but I hate to see one traumatised by a Batman film. And when it all goes quiet and a little girlish voice asks, "Is Batman dead?" it really breaks the mood. lol! Welcome to a world without rules! |
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Coralskipper.dubthistheforum |
#11 | |||
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Posts: 138 07/27/08 22:21 |
Dear lord, look at these numbers for the
movie. It's insane, but well deserved, and, honestly, if it brings down Titanic's record for best worldwide gross, I'll be all the happier.
Damon Runyon once said, "Ninety-five percent of sports tradition is fiction. Lies, if you like. But harmless. Who the hell cares if the facts get twisted?"
Damon Runyon once said, "Ninety-five percent of sports tradition is fiction. Lies, if you like. But harmless. Who the hell cares if the facts get
twisted?"
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Chris Dee |
#12 | |||
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Posts: 792 07/28/08 07:33 |
I know. It's unreal. I think the midnight preview alone was something like $18 mill. So that's, what, paying off nearly 20% of the film's cost
IN THE FIRST 2 HOURS??? Okay, that much we can attribute to Heath's passing and a perfectly executed viral. What's happening now, that's the
content and total package of the film. Honestly, I have never seen reactions like this. Last night I got an email. Subjectline: Holy. Fucking. God.
My first thought? "Oh, he saw it." I open the email... Yep. He's just back from Dark Knight and in that state of stunned fangasm disbelief that seems to last 36-72 hours.
--Chris Dee
Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Superpowers corrupts - superbly. --Identity Element |
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The Wilder |
#13 | |||
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Posts: 261 07/28/08 12:27 Gothamite |
I was lucky enough to catch it again in IMAX, and it's definitely worth going through the trouble and all those sold out shows to make it. I've never
really been a big fan of IMAX and haven't been in a while, but seeing The Dark Knight on the big screen was amazing.
As for the numbers, I'm glad the movie is really getting the attention that it deserves. I know people who have been avoiding the movie because of the packed crowds, but I keep telling them that it's worth it to watch now. |
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Coralskipper.dubthistheforum |
#14 | |||
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Posts: 138 07/28/08 12:45 |
A few things make these numbers more impressive than they would be already, at least in my mind. Probably at the top of the list is the fact that this is in no
way, shape, or form a kids movie. There might not be explicit violence, but even without that, it's easily boarderline R. Next, this is a superhero movie,
yet it's transcended that label. It's getting the snotty movie goers who would never think about seeing such a movie going to it. Then, it's not
exactly the most robust economy, yet people are still going out and seeing the movie. Not only that, they're seeing it multiple times.
Damon Runyon once said, "Ninety-five percent of sports tradition is fiction. Lies, if you like. But harmless. Who the hell cares if the facts get
twisted?"
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Chris Dee |
#15 | |||
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Posts: 792 07/28/08 13:01 |
I second Wilder on making the effort to see it in IMAX while we have the chance. I am glad I didn't attempt it for the first viewing. There was so much
to let settle beforehand. But the megascreen and the Hong Kong sections are something any movie buff and Bat-buff should experience
--Chris Dee
Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Superpowers corrupts - superbly. --Identity Element |
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MyklarCure |
*peeks into thread* | #16 | ||
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Posts: 6 07/29/08 13:55 |
Okay, as the author of the aforementioned "Holy.Fucking.God." e-mail, I figured I'd poke my head up and drop in my $.02. Besides, I needed somewhere to unload before my brain exploded and this is my go-to place for comic-related explosions. ;)
I believe the phrase I used in the aforementioned e-mail was something along the lines of:
It took 6 movies (okay, 7 if you count the Adam West/Burt Ward fiasco in '66) but they finally got it fucking RIGHT!
To crib the phrase: This is Shakespeare the way
it was meant to be played. Everything was spot on - characterization, story, acting, effects, visual aesthetic - and I'm still a bit shell-shocked from the
idea that after 30+ years of trial-and-failure (with only occasional glimmers of hope), I've finally seen a Batman movie that matched
exactly the BatVerse in my head.
Okay, I'm just going to start from the beginning and vent my fanboy spleen here, using the Spoiler tags where necessary. In fact, I'll probably use the Spoiler tags more than necessary - I'm more likely to use them to shorten the original length of the post and hide the long-winded rambles. ;)
Spoiler: Trailers
But enough about that, on with the real show. One of the greatest parts of the whole experience to me was that as much as this was a "Summer Blockbuster Action Movie"™, it was still such a character piece. It not only provided the prerequisite action/excitement, but also delved deep into the characters themselves, all in the process of telling a great story. This was, from start to finish, a BATMAN story - the kind you could find in any well-written comic book. Nolan & Goyer's love for the characters really shone through in the writing and direction - you could tell that not only do they enjoy these characters, they understand these characters, and they understood them well enough to craft character progressions throughout the story.
Spoiler: The story itself - The power of three
All intellectual exercises aside, the movie was brilliantly put together and the story was completely captivating. Yes, it's Batman's name on the door and it's certainly a Batman movie, but there's no denying that the story is the story of Harvey Dent. From start to finish, I thought it was a brilliantly crafted story and the fact that the characters were so well thought out, so well defined and so well performed catapulted this beyond your standard "Summer Action Blockbuster".
Thoughts on the cast/character themselves: Bale - Bruce/Bats & the voice Once again, Bale hit this one out of the park. Between
Begins and this one, he's solidified himself in my mind as the quintessential Movie Batman. At this point, I couldn't imagine anyone playing
that part quite like (or quite as well as) Bale. I know that one of the "sticking" points that critics and fans alike have pointed out is Bale's
"BatVoice". Well, without getting too in-depth, I will say that as someone who has recorded his own version of it for certain projects, the BatGravel
is NOT an easy thing to pull off. The real problem is that you need someone with a naturally low, deep timbre (a la Keith David, Kevin Conroy, etc) to
really capture it and in truth, there are only a handful of people on this planet that have that perfect voice for it - and most of them aren't right
physically for the part or don't have the acting chops to pull off Batman without looking campy or silly. Remember that Bale has a naturally
high-to-mid-range vocal timbre and that he is British, so (to us) has a British accent. I've noticed as well that when he uses his
"Americanized" accent, he tends to have a slight lisp (surprisingly not uncommon for the British-to-American vocal conversion {see: Laurie, Hugh}
Ledger - Joker I don't know what to say other than "Wow".
(But of course, that won't stop me from saying a lot more.
Spoiler
I've seen/heard/read a lot of people doing a compare/contrast game with Ledger's portrayal of Joker and Nicholson's. To me, this
does BOTH a huge disservice - they both chose (or at least, their directors chose) completely different takes on the character. It's apples
and oranges. In truth, both are equally as valid as stylistic choices, considering there's been about 150,000 different "takes" on the Joker
in the comics over the years, but for me personally, Ledger's performance was the scariest and closest to what my personal take on the Joker
has always been. Nicholson's was more of the classic version of "psychotic" - a person who can't really tell the difference between right
and wrong and does whatever they want without remorse or, for the most part, thought - and was that bordering-on-campy routine that can work (if placed in
the right hands) but ends up being more funny than scary. For me, Nicholson's take was just Caesar Romero with a violence fetish. Ledger's take was
more in the sociopathic/antisocial-disorder realm - he knows the difference between right and wrong, he understands what he's doing,
he just doesn't fucking care. He's the "Agent of Chaos" - while he too does not feel remorse or guilt for his actions, he is in complete
control of himself most of the time and chooses to do the things he does. To me, this is the scariest concept of all.
The other reason I think Ledger's Joker far outshines Nicholson's is that, to me, Nicholson's always been one of those actors who plays himself in every movie. I call it Costner-McConaughey Syndrome {see also: Wayne, John; Chase, Chevy; Vaughn, Vince; etc}. I sat through the entire '89 Batman thinking "Wow, look - it's Jack Nicholson playing Joker", whereas with Ledger, he became the part.
(Oh look, now I've done
the compare/contrast thing. Hypocrite, thy name is Myk.
In any event, Ledger's Joker was absolutely haunting. From the opening bank scene to the "disappearing pencil" trick to the constantly changing story about his facial scars to the Death-in-the-Family-esque lead pipe assault on Bats near the end - he expertly played the violence angle, yet still managed the lower-key creepy/scary at the same time. The real problem with playing crazy in the movies is that it's SO easy to overdo it - and Ledger expertly avoided that trap. He tap-danced right up to the edge of too-much and stayed right there the entire film - it was astounding. To me, there was nothing quite as chilling as him and Batman in the interrogation room - Batman pummeling the crap out of him and he's just laughing. "There's nothing that all your strength can get out of me" - had me in chills; happy, creeped-out chills.
Eckhart - Dent/Twofers After seeing Eckhart in "Thank you for Smoking", I knew he'd be perfect for Harvey Dent - he had just the right level of confident-bordering-on-too-cocky swagger in the courtroom to pull off the DA Dent role. But his performance went so much deeper.
Oldman - Gordon I will admit to a personal bias here - Gary Oldman is one of those actors that I could sit and watch read the phone book for 10 hours and be perfectly entertained. That being said, Oldman is another one who has grabbed his character and owned it. Especially after the catastrophe of "Gordon" in all previous incarnations (TV Show, The Nice-Try Movie Quartet) - with the fat, bumbling fool - Oldman was so friggin' perfect as the real Jim Gordon, that it set my geek-heart a-twitter.
Spoiler: Gordon, the Wife & Kids.
Freeman - Fox
Overall/Final thoughts: As far as overall aesthetic, this movie was fucking gorgeous. The locations were amazing and the design of the sets were remarkable.
There were a lot of great little touches in the overall design as well as costumes and props that just thrilled my little fanboy heart.
Spoiler: Locations, Little Pieces, & Favorite lines/moments
And on a final note, an open letter to Hollywood: Hey guys, take a look at the two highest grossing Comic Book movies of all time (Dark Knight, Spider-man 2). See, there's a reason not to fuck with the original characterizations and themes established in the comics: these characters resonate as they are. And the trick to pulling it off? HIRE MORE COMIC GEEKS! Nolan and Raimi knew, understood and (most importantly) LOVED the original characters and brought that love to the screen - and look what happened. People flocked to them both because this wasn't a "re-imagining" of the originals, it was the characters that the public fell in love with in the first place. You wanna keep yanking in hundreds of millions on comic movies? Check your local comic shops before diving into the on-contract director- and writer-bins. Thank you. |
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Clutterbuck |
#17 | |||
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Posts: 32 07/30/08 09:07 |
MyklarCure wrote:
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Coralskipper.dubthistheforum |
#18 | |||
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Posts: 138 07/30/08 11:50 |
I'll be honest before the movie I thought the Montoya/Ramirez name change was done more because of Montoya's sexuality, and history with Two-Face than
anything else. Talk about being pleasantly surprised that it wasn't the case.
Damon Runyon once said, "Ninety-five percent of sports tradition is fiction. Lies, if you like. But harmless. Who the hell cares if the facts get
twisted?"
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ichigenka.gothampm |
#19 | |||
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Posts: 264 07/30/08 12:48 |
What is the Post still saying Montoya is a lesbian?
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DorothyTRose |
#20 | |||
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Posts: 215 07/30/08 23:17 |
Goodness sake, Myklar. I've been sitting here trying to write a letter to Nolan without writing a movie review. I almost think I should scrap that
idea, copy what you wrote, add a few of my own thoughts, and send that! lol. J/k. Those are, pretty much, my thoughts exactly, though. ^__^
As far as Gordon's kids go, that explains my confusion. I misremembered the kid in the highchair in Begins as a girl, so I thought it was Barbara...as
in a younger sister. *shrugs* And I didn't pay that much attention to the credits. lol.
Welcome to a world without rules! |
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